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Closedroom1

Diagram of Grill 13

During the morning of Day 1, the Masters Bai Shui, Aileen Blackthorn, and Genessa Satellizer became entangled in a mysterious incident after entering the restaurant Grill 13 with their mutual acquaintance, Alpha.

On being questioned, the Game Master declared the incident a Closed Room and challenged the players to a duel of facts and theories -- "red" truth and "blue".

As of yet, this Closed Room has not been solved.

RecapEdit

Bai, Genessa, Aileen, and Alpha entered Grill 13. Aileen and Genessa left for the bathroom. Bai attempted to interrogate Alpha and got kicked into the Atlas members’ table. Alpha’s movements after that are unknown. Bai used a water spell to effectively create a smokescreen and leave via the front door, breaking the seal of the closed room. When Aileen and Genessa talked to the alchemists, they claimed that only Aileen, Genessa, and Bai had entered and that Bai had leapt towards the table on his own. Question – what happened to Alpha?

The diagram above shows the scene right before Bai Shui was attacked. Yellow dot is Genessa, orange dot is Aileen, dark blue dot is Alpha, light blue dot is Bai Shui, and violet dots are the Atlas members. Red represents the borders of the closed room and the major furniture inside it.

The term closed room refers to a room where the inside and the outside of the room are completely separated. Obviously, for any form of intrusion or escape, no intervention is possible. That comprehensively includes a denial of hidden doors, as well as all margin for intervention from outside. "Margin for intervention from the outside" refers to all types of direct intervention from the outside, such as using a fishing line or a long, thin rod. In short, all direct and indirect methods of interfering from the outside of the room to the inside of the closed room are impossible. This includes magecraft and similar abilities of this universe.

FactsEdit

Alpha, without a doubt, existed in that room until his disappearance! But never once did he use any supernatural abilities himself to escape from the room!

Alpha is not a Master!! He has never been one!! (unrelated)

Alpha and the alchemists have never met or discussed in any way!!

The Alchemists that Aileen and Genessa met have not lied nor have they been deceiving them in any way!

An entity named Alpha had nothing to do with the previous Holy Grail War. (unrelated)

Only the three lowermost tables had anyone sitting around them! Both of the tables had two customers! When combined with the alchemists, that makes seven! None of those seven could help Alpha to escape! Neither could any of the Grill 13's staff! Of course, Bai Shui himself did not help him escape! So, in other words, none of the people inside the main dining hall could help Alpha to escape from the building in any way!

Whoops, I guess that group includes both Aileen and Genessa until they exited the dining hall.

The entity known as Alpha does not exist inside Grill 13.

Alpha did not receive any help from p- (revised into the below fact)

None of the people Bai Shui saw in the dining hall could help Alpha to escape. Those employees that we did not see could not help him either.

"The two doors that led outside, the front door and the employee-only back door, were not opened until Bai Shui escaped through the front door. Naturally, none of the windows was opened during this time. This all applies also to the time from when Bai and Alpha started talking to when Bai Shui made his escape."

During the period of the time that passes between Bai Shui's and Alpha's conversation, and when Bai Shui escapes, the only means to enter or exit Grill 13 are the two mentioned doors and the windows.

Of course all windows were closed, as were the doors. But what's the point, as according to the Closed Room Definition, it is impossible to affect things through them even if they were wide open. This is what meta-game is about, isn't it?

As you said, there were no more than 11 people inside that dining hall, until Bai started talking to Alpha and Genessa and Aileen moved to the women's bathroom.

Nobody was hiding in the kitchen or bathrooms.

The Alchemists could not have seen Alpha.
The staff did not see Alpha.
Alpha has no latent magical abilities.
Alpha has no familiars.

Acknowledged.

The others I refuse to answer. But know this: No supernatural entity helped Alpha to escape.

No method of escape was prepared for Alpha by humans or supernatural entities before Alpha arrived at Grill 13.

Alpha is not an employee of Grill 13.

The being known as Alpha does not exist, in any way, inside that burger joint by the time Bai Shui has made his escape!

Nobody entered the Grill 13 during the time period between Bai Shui's and Alpha's conversation and when Bai Shui escaped the building!

Neither was anybody hiding in any place not visible to Bai Shui!

The one who kicked Bai onto the Alchemists' table may not have been Alpha.

From the time Alpha, Bai, Lightning, and Aileen entered the burger joint until the time Bai was kicked onto the Alchemists' table, not a single person or thing entered or left the hamburger joint.

When I say hamburger joint, it means every part of the hamburger joint, even those areas that would be otherwise hidden from you or out of Bai Shui's sight.

As of the current time in the story, Alpha no longer exists inside the burger joint.

Alpha is, at this part of the story, outdoors.

After the hamburger joint, the very next place Alpha existed was outdoors.

Of course, during the time period between start of Bai Shui's and Alpha's conversation and Bai Shui's escape, "outdoors" could only be reached from either the "Front door", the "Back door" or the "windows".

I do not give out cheap red truths like that tobias!! Do not insult this mystery by asking something like it!!

Before Alpha and Bai Shui started their conversation, "outdoors" could also be reached through the ventilation shaft inside the women's bathroom, which happens to be big enough for a person of normal built to slip through. Of course, when the two started talking, Aileen and Genessa entered the bathroom, making the escape impossible!

Regardless of the time it takes place, the only methods of entrance or exit from the 'hamburger joint' to 'outdoors' is 'the front door', 'the back door', 'the windows', and 'the ventilation shaft in the woman's bathroom’. However, as shown, time places restrictions upon these entrances and exits.

[There’s no ventilation shaft in the men’s bathroom?] Not one through which a human could fit through.

During the events that took place in Grill 13, not a single thing in the ventilation shaft tried to help Alpha escape, or was part of his plan to escape.

The hamburger joint can be thought of being four areas. The 'dining area', the 'kitchen', 'bathroom' and the 'ventilation shaft'. There are no other places or areas within the hamburger joint for anybody to exist.

From the time that Alpha, Bai, Aileen, and Lightning entered the hamburger joint up to the time that Lightning and Aileen went to the 'bathroom', the number of humans that existed within the bathrooms is zero, and the number of non-employees in the kitchen is zero!

From the time that Alpha, Bai, Aileen, and Lightning entered the hamburger joint up to the time that Lightning and Aileen went to the 'bathroom', the number of humans that existed in any way or form within either the bathrooms or the ventilation shaft was zero.

"No supernatural entity helped Alpha to escape."

[Is it even okay by the rules, to use such a dirty trick....!?] What are you talking about, I'm following perfectly all the rules of this mystery, after all!!!

No supernatural entity aided Alpha to escape, whether directly or indirectly, intentionally or accidentally.

The back door and windows are still intact. In other words, nobody and nothing has interacted with them since the time Alpha, Bai, Lightning, and Aileen entered the hamburger joint up to the time Bai escaped through the front door. Which would have been denied anyways by the simple fact that this is a closed room.

I refuse to repeat! An easy, well-marked road like this does not and will never exist for you! Whether or not there really was something, that is for you to find out! Is the deduction possible or is it not, could he really have run away without anything happening, or was there some kind of magic involved? I'm not going to give you a straight answer to these questions! Do you know why? Because this is the dilemma of any mystery! Is deduction possible, or not!!

And as for you, tang, you can bet on it that the Alpha he saw existed in the same hamburger joint as him, breathed the same air as him, saw the same things as him and felt the same things as him all the time!! Something that is not there cannot escape!!

We agreed that when speaking of help, it didn't matter whether it was involuntary or not, right?

Neither Alpha, nor anyone else in Grill 13, made use of a predetermined mystery from the time Alpha and the others entered, till Bai Shui made his escape!

Supernatural abilities did, in fact, hide Alpha from their sight.

There was no supernatural ability affecting Alpha at the time he entered Grill 13!

From the time Alpha, Bai, Lightning, and Aileen entered the burger joint until the time Bai was kicked onto the Alchemists' table, not a single person or thing entered or left the hamburger joint.

And time was in no way tampered with, nor was there any "delayed spells” at hand.

The alchemists were not being observed by someone or something who knew their status as representatives of Atlas, or reported to someone who did, at least not before the Masters arrived.

Nobody inside or immediately outside Grill 13 was under surveillance prior to the arrival of the Masters to Grill 13.

From the time that Bai encountered Alpha at Ennou's shop, to the time Bai escaped, Alpha made no contact with any being unbeknownst to Bai, Lightning, or Aileen.

Alpha did not activate any ability that would have prevented some people from noticing him when he entered Grill 13! [refused to modify "when he entered Grill 13" to “while he was inside Grill 13"]

Of course, 'entering' and 'leaving' are defined as increasing and decreasing the number of beings inside, respectively. This applies to both when I use it and when you use it. And without a doubt, Alpha entered Grill 13 at the same time with Aileen, Bai Shui and Genessa!!

I hereby seal all sorts of teleportation, from inside Grill 13 to outside, and from outside to Grill 13! In other words, no teleportation can be used during these events!!

There are no robots! But you, KENTA, you are incompetent!

As for what comes to Alpha, of course Alpha is always Alpha!

If Alpha had passed them, Aileen and Genessa would have definitely sensed him.

Not possible! There was no place for him to wait like that! After all, nobody was hiding in the bathrooms, which would include men's bathroom too, which was the only place where he could have hid.

Magic was used within the bar. I refuse to state the effects. This took place in the time period between when Lightning left for the bathroom and one second after Bai's back hit the table!

Only place where you can enter the ventilation shaft that you can reach "outside" through is in the women's bathroom!

I've said it already, haven't I? Never once did Alpha use any supernatural abilites himself to escape from the room!

Unfortunately only people that can use any supernatural abilities in whole Grill 13 were the alchemists and our group of Aileen, Bai, Genessa and Alpha!

Supernatural things don't happen without a reason. Unless that supernatural effect was created by something inside Grill 13, it cannot exist, as interference from outside is impossible.

Blue truth ineffective! If you cannot provide a possibility, then that supernatural phenomena of yours cannot exist!

There was no supernatural effect involved with Bai's encounter with the Alchemists, except of course, Bai's own magecraft! And when Bai believed he was feeling Alpha's foot, Alpha was not already in the midst of his escape, nor had he already escaped!

"no supernatural effect, save thought acceleration, came from the alchemists before bai made his escape"
"supernatural abilities would include all manner of non prana based but still unscientific based abilities, including but not limited to hypnotic suggestion, mystic eyes, the unified language, and other such effects"
"using an ability to escape would include indirect methods that resulted in the escape, for example an ability that confused the alchemists and aided in framing bai, buying time!"
"using an ability would include indirectly or directly causing something else to use an effect, this would include the already discarded mystic code, and any personality alterations/split personalities that alpha might have!"

All acknowledged. Though abilities that would not necessarily be needed for escape, or ones that would not lead to an escape by themselves are still excluded, and will be.

Alpha still existed in Grill 13 the instant before Bai touched the door during his escape. Of course he did.

Alpha escaped after Bai opened the front door to escape, but before Bai escaped.

Bai Shui was the only person to use front door.

"Using" the door is just what you think. Opening it. Going out of it. Closing it. Even if you don't open or close it, if you go through the doorway, and exit outside, you're "using" it.

Alpha escaped through the back door.

When Alpha left Grill 13, it was all executed according to his own plans and designs, and he was not coerced in anyway, nor kidnapped against his will!

If Alpha had tried to escape through normal means into the backdoor, he would have most definitely been seen by the staff of Grill 13!! Yet, not a single staff-member detected him!!

You haven't presented a possibility for the supernatural phenomena which hides Alpha from sight! Unless you do so, your theory is incomplete!!

you did say that no members of grill 13 were under surveillance before the arrival of the masters. you did not say they were not under surveillance after. a non human presence was with the masters and entered the bar at the same time they did, when the room became closed. it was not counted among the "persons" inside, nor among the "people" that can use supernatural abilities. it was possibly following or attached to alpha. this influence shielded itself from sight. though alpha himself could not (or would not) do so, he was able to course or utilize its protection himself, setting in motion the events of his escape.

A non-human presence entered Grill 13 along with Aileen, Alpha, Bai, and Genessa. After this, the closed room was established. Through some method, Alpha took advantage of the non-human's ability to shield itself from sight to hide from the alchemists. Genessa and Aileen then left for the women's bathroom. After Bai was kicked into the alchemist's table, Alpha headed towards the kitchen, now hidden from Bai's sight as well. When Bai caused a distraction, Alpha used this opportunity to use the back door, leaving just after Bai broke the closed room by opening the door but before Bai left Grill 13. Blue truth: Effective!

Alpha never used the back door! Alpha never used the front door! Alpha never used the windows! Alpha never used the ventilation shaft! Alpha never used any sort of supernatural ability!! Alpha never exited Grill 13!!! YET AT THE MOMENT, ALPHA DOES NOT EXIST WITHIN GRILL 13!!! THIS IS A PERFECT CLOSED ROOM, AND ALPHA, WHO WAS TRAPPED INSIDE IT, SIMPLY DISAPPEARED!!

Foooooooolll, kyahyahyahyahya!! *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!!! Can't you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaddd??? That's why you are incompetent!

Alpha never exited Grill 13!! And he is very much aliveeeeee, *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!!

[Is the closed room still in effect? Did the non-human absorb Alpha?] It does, but Alpha is no longer thereeeee!!! He just disappeaaaarss! And the "non-human" did nothing of the sort to Alpha!!

Closed room, as far as what is closed room, is of course, still in effect. But there's nobody it's binding anymore. Didn't I say it? Alpha no longer exists within Grill 13.

Whaaaaaatt?? Of course not! Grill 13 existed through the whole event, and was never teleported anywhere!

To "exist" means that you "are there", wherever you are!

And in both of your examples, Alpha would still exist inside Grill 13!

Alpha was not aided in his final escape by factors outside Grill 13.

Alpha refers to a body and not to a name.

[Does “acknowledged mean that the statement is completely correct?] Of course. When I word it like that, it means that I've acknowledged what was said as "the truth".

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? A non-sentient objeeeeeect?? And a one that does not produce a predetermined mystery and yet does something supernaturaaaaalll? Of course that is not possible! If the object is doing something else than it's "predetermined mystery", something must have tampered with it.

"during the the time frame that exists between 1 second before bai uses the bottle spell and 1 second after alpha escapes, no outside influence entered grill 13"

Of course not. Acknowledged.

Alpha would not be able to fit into the ventilation shaft in men's bathroom. In fact, I shall now seal the men's bathroom's ventilation shaft from usage as a escape route of any kind.

If the supernatural ability is the purpose of that object, then it is a "predetermined mystery".

"Exiting Grill 13 can be defined as crossing any border on the map of Grill 13." Sure, I'll acknowledge it. However, do remember that the Grill 13 cannot be exited anywhere else but through the "exits" I've already told you guys.

[in the time frame that exists between 1 second before alpha appeared to kick bai, and 1 second after alpha entered the area previously defined as "outdoors" nothing entered grill 13, nor became "outdoors" besides bai and alpha.] Okay, acknowledged. And you know, since I sealed the ventilation shaft in men's bathroom, it cannot be used. And since I misread your theory, let's put it this way: Nothing living existed inside the ventilation shaft in men's bathroom.

Red truth is simply the truth, and I don't have to explain it!

Alpha's soul was not transferred to another body. Further more, no body named "Alpha" can be found inside Grill 13 after Bai Shui makes his escape.

"Nobody" is no one at all.
"Anybody" is any single person.
"Person" is someone.
"Being" is someone which exists.
"Supernatural" is that which should not be possible.

And of course Alpha is currently in the same world as Bai, Lightning, and everyone else.

And yes, there were no more than 11 beings with classification of "human" at any given time inside Grill 13 during the events. That is, until the escape happened.

There was not a single thing that arrived in Grill 13 while shielded from senses of other's in any way.

Alpha's soul never left his body!

Yes, Alpha did enter Grill 13 with Bai Shui, Genessa and Aileen. And he never exited the place. Yet, he no longer exists inside Grill 13.

Nothing died in Grill 13 between the time that the Masters entered it, and that Alpha ceased to exist.

"Would an animal acting as the transference for a supernatural effect by definition be classified as a familiar?"
Does a familiar in itself constitute a supernatural agency, thus eliminating it from the possibility of aiding Alpha?"

That is basically what familiar is. Of course, there can be exceptions, but if you want to keep the animal controlled and doing it's job, it would have to be familiar. This, of course, counts as outside interference, since the familiar's Master is directing the familiar inside Grill 13.

The identity of all beings inside the hamburger joint at the current point of time is equivalent to the identity of all beings inside the hamburger joint when Bai, Alpha, Aileen, and Lightning first entered, minus Alpha and Bai Shui!

And of course, there are no other entrances to the ventilation shafts than in their respective bathrooms. The ventilation shafts are not connected.

I don't need to. Red truth already blocks the ventilation shaft in the men's bathroom, and if Alpha would have gone to the women's bathroom, he would have been spotted by Aileen and Genessa. In fact, let's seal up any kind of interaction with the ventilation shaft in men's bathroom.

I told you already, didn't I? Alpha never exited Grill 13.

If Alpha entered the women's bathroom at all, then it could not have been in any other time than when Genessa and Aileen were there.

Any beings that existed within the Hamburger joint from the time that Alpha, Bai, Aileen, and Lightning entered to the time Alpha escaped, still exist there now. The exceptions to this are Alpha and Bai.

Nothing that did not already exist within the Grill 13 when Alpha, Bai, Aileen, and Genessa entered, existed at any point within Grill 13 from after they had entered to this current point in time.

Alpha did not in anyway change the setting of Grill 13. He did not in any way alter the interior of Grill 13. He did not redirect or in any way effect the closed room.
Actually, lets widen that out slightly. It presumably would be Alpha, but it wouldn't actually have to be, would it? So lets say no entity did any such thing instead.

Acknowledged..............though changes within what a closed room allows are still possible.

"no supernatural entity or effect was either used on or inside the men's bathroom. from the time period that exists between 1 second before the master's arrival and 1 second after alpha becomes "outside" neither was any supernatural effect active on or within it during that time"
"No place that existed as 'part of Grill 13' at the time Alpha entered Grill 13 has been redefined as 'outside' in any point of time up to the present."

Acknowledged.

"Alpha is not so crazy prepared that he has a tool kit or some variant of such on his person, does not have any form of items, tools or gadgets available that would surprise anyone thinking of a normal brochure salesman, and is also not so crazy prepared as to have left any such device stashed in a place or places he knew he might visit later with the idea of ensuring he always had an ace in the hole"

Alpha is, in fact, just that kind of a man. However, I can assure you that Alpha had hidden nothing in Grill 13. And although I cannot completely guarantee what was in his pockets, he had no toolbox nor any kind of variant of it.

None of the areas inside Grill 13 have had their definition as "inside" changed at any point during the events that happened inside Grill 13.

Of course not! Alpha stayed nicely in that exactly same dimension that Bai Shui and other Masters were!

No magus was amongst the staff of Grill 13!!

No time travel was involved in events of Grill 13!

There was no magic tornado! Alpha was never turned into a incorporeal ghost!

Alpha didn't die!

Alpha never turned into water!

Alpha never transformed into anything immaterial!

None of the employees is named or is referred to as "Alpha"! And of course, none of the four civilian-customers are not named or referred to as Alpha! Of course, none of the Alchemists is named Alpha, or referred to as Alpha. Well, of course, one of the two remaining is referred to as Alpha, or has the name of Alpha.

If there is something non-human inside Grill 13, it definitely would be seen by humans like everything else. Oh, and in those areas with no humans, no non-humans existed!

Fine. But it still holds no water at all, since nobody inside had that kind of power anyway. [to “transform” Alpha]

If there is a second Alpha somewhere out of the closed room (Of course, even though the real Alpha is "outdoors, he does not count), he has never been referred to in meta-game.

None of the employees of Grill 13 helped Alpha to escape.

Nothing that did not already exist within the Grill 13 when Alpha, Bai, Aileen, and Genessa entered, existed at any point within Grill 13 from after they had entered to this current point in time. And of course, no object could qualify as Alpha, we are referring to the body, aren't we?

There were no new faces amongst the employees of Grill 13!! Each of them had been working in Grill 13 for over six months already!

Nobody was acting as a employee of Grill 13 while not actually being one.

Alpha was transformed into somebody else, and left. For example, perhaps he was transformed into a 'copy' of Bai and then left through the front door after Bai did. Shortly after leaving, the spell wore off, and Alpha 'existed' again, but this time outside.

In that case he would still count as Alpha!

Ennou and Alpha have no relation to each other whatsoever, other than the latter buying stuff from the former's stall sometimes!

Anything one of the Masters noticed should be fair game, so why don't you give us a recap of what they saw after entering?

Hmm, well now.....let's see. They saw the dining hall and everybody inside it. In other words the three alchemists and the four civilians. They saw the corridor leading to the bathrooms. They also saw the employee at the counter, and in the kitchen they might have caught a sight of another employee or two.

Alpha never turned into a piece of paper! Nothing but employees of Grill 13 were in the kitchen! Alpha does and did not have a clone!

Of course not, no "object" inside Grill 13 later became Alpha "outside". Object is, of course, referring to various things such as knives, plastic trays and what-not inside Grill 13, not everything inside Grill 13.

Alpha never used any "scientific device or principle" that had the ability to enact something on the level of magecraft. In other words, he did not duplicate magic through science.

Alpha was never transformed into anything that did not qualify as Alpha!

Even if we suppose Alpha could have somehow made his ways past the restrictions and got to the roof, the snow from yesterday night on the roof is completely untouched. The snowfall stopped about 2 hours ago, and since then, nothing has left footprints on that snow on the roof.

The snow is completely untouched, and no tracks have been covered in order to make it just appear so.

Alpha had never visited Grill 13 before. Remember, Alpha had only arrived to the island few days ago.

And, unfortunately, no way of walking would have made it possible to cross that fresh snow without leaving footprints.

It is impossible to reach the roof straight from men's bathroom!

"Alpha is not currently on the roof of Grill 13."

I refuse to repeat. I won't reveal the reason.

Men's bathroom is the only place, barring kitchen, where Alpha could have escaped to in order to avoid being seen by Aileen and Genessa! In other words, if Alpha had been anywhere else inside Grill 13 but in the men's bathroom or hiding in the kitchen, those two would have seen him!

Misona is not the detective!

"Alpha did not make use of any structural effect to reach the roof that was designed to release heat or smoke, active or otherwise."

Acknowledged.

Alpha is always Alpha!!

Alpha was created by the famous Load Down

Load Down cannot accomplish what you just described!

I've said it already, haven't I? Never once did Alpha use any supernatural abilites himself to escape from the room!

Alpha's concealing method has to do with positioning. In fact, if Bai Shui swaps places with any of the alchemists at any given time prior to the kick, he would not be able to notice where Alpha is or if Alpha is still there at all!

Position has nothing to do with it! And by the way, neither are his clothes in any way special, and this includes his sunglasses. He has had no prior info about the Grill 13 either!

Alpha never used any sort of supernatural ability!!

That's because there was supernatural assistance! But it wasn't used to help him escape, it is in fact, why the alchemists couldn't remember him!

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